Agency or In-House? The Great Marketing Tug-of-War
We find ourselves to be interesting. However, I do think we brought up some
Brian Rowley:You were interesting.
Laura Smith:I said our conversation is interesting.
Brian Rowley:Oh, okay. Alright. Good. Good. Good.
Laura Smith:Welcome to Prose + Comms: Engagement, Unplugged. I'm Laura Smith.
Brian Rowley:And I'm Brian Rowley.
Laura Smith:Today, we're talking about an age old question. Should brands keep marketing in house or lean on agencies? And for me, this is super interesting topic. Why? Because I worked for many years in an agency, and now I work in house.
Laura Smith:And Brian and I both work in in house, and we work with agencies and with an in house team. So this is gonna be super interesting. So I think this is gonna be a really fun conversation, Brian. I think we have a lot of the same, points of view on the topic, but we also have the some that are that differ. Obviously, my experience is different than yours.
Laura Smith:Yours is different than mine. So I think let's just dive into the topic because I know it can be controversial. I know some things I say might be controversial being on both sides at some point in my career. So let's just talk about it, Brian. Like, what what's your perspective, gut reaction, in house or agency?
Brian Rowley:I think from my perspective, I mean, I've always worked agency. So I don't know that I have the other perspective other than the perspective of what's worked really, really well and understanding the things that you can control, you can't control. So, you know, personally think it's a balance, but I know you and I have talked about this a million times. I think regardless of what you're doing, I think making sure whoever the agency partner is that you have, they're a part of your team.
Laura Smith:Yeah, and I think the, it's interesting because if you talk to a lot of marketers, there's a lot of, or just brands and companies, there's a lot of pressure to cut down spend, and how do you build a team versus paying agencies to do some of the work. So it's it's interesting because some people think by cutting you can cut costs by bringing in house, but the reality is you're adding overhead too. Right? So so maybe sometimes that cutting cost is working with an agency because you can get a very specific skill set working efficiently as a part of your team, like you said, and not drive up costs. So it's always, you know, when you have to go into budgeting, there is that, well, how much agency expense do you have?
Brian Rowley:Yeah. And I think you also have to look at it from the perspective of the skill set. Because there are things that agency does every single day. Where an in house team, it may be one of many hats that they wear in the marketing department. And so I think, you know, there, I think long term if you look at the spend, you may end up paying less because you're not doing rework.
Brian Rowley:You're not spending a ton of time diverting, you know, in house resources to something that's not their skillset, so therefore it's gonna take longer for them to do it. So I think if you look at it from a efficiency and productivity perspective, I think there are certain tasks that clearly agency makes much more sense.
Laura Smith:Yeah. And I would say, like, it also the whole, you know, coming from agency for most of my career. And again, agencies could be anything. Right? We have creative agencies.
Laura Smith:There's digital agencies. There's PR agencies. Like, so there's video production agencies. So there's so many different types of agencies, and there can be very specific skill sets you want from an agency. But being on the agency side for most of my career, and that was ranged from brand and advertising and PR agencies, what I would say about it, and I tell, like, newly graduated, marketing, you know, people that wanna, pursue a marketing career, is start an agency.
Laura Smith:Because the benefit there is that there's so much diversity of work and thinking and client expertise and ranges of industries. You can just learn a ton because there's so much to be learned. And then take all that learning and then go in house. And then you can be a very, you know, proficient marketer knowing how the creative process works or how the paid media process works or how the PR process works because you're exposed to those experts. And then also having a range of clients in different industries, you're you'll learn so much.
Laura Smith:So I think there's so much so I do see a lot of that expertise coming from agencies and and can rely on those folks because when you go in house, you may just have a very specific role as it relates to marketing. Like, you might be the paid media person, or you might be the social person. But if you come from an agency or if you're exposed to that, you have a lot more experience and knowledge beyond that one skill set.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I might look at that a little differently though, because I do agree that you would get that, but I don't think that you can't get that in house. I think it depends on the company that you're actually working for. Because if you're in more of a smaller startup organization, you do wear multiple hats across multiple marketing roles. And, you know, if you work with an external agency, you'll get a lot of the learnings that you just described versus working for like a big corporation where you're right.
Brian Rowley:Like, you may be very much focused on SEO or you may be very focused on just like web or you may email or demand gen or something along those lines. So I think it just depends on the type of company that you actually go to. I do think you don't, I don't think you have to go to agency out of the gate in order to get that scope of a marketing role. I just think you can't go right into a large organization because I think you're more more likely to get a little siloed in those companies than you would in, like, a startup.
Laura Smith:Yeah. I think that's a fair point. I do. Because I think it it is that that and then you talk about, like, big agency versus small agency. You know?
Laura Smith:I think there's been small agencies I've been at where some of the team members got so much exposure to things that they would never have at a big agency. So, like, they could start there and then move into in house because they've learned a lot in a small agency environment.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I mean, I think the one thing that I would say that I think agency does bring is, I do think that they do bring sort of that fresh perspective, right? Which you don't always get. Because sometimes you get so focused. I mean, we see it every day with the work that we do with Racepoint.
Brian Rowley:Right? Like every single day we're having conversations. We've got people who are inserting themselves into our business and asking questions that I don't know that we always would ask because we're so tight to the actual product and the company. And I think they do challenge us a lot. And I would say that I think that's an important part.
Brian Rowley:I think as you're deciding on what agency you should be choosing, you don't want someone that's just gonna yes you to death. I mean, you know, we say it all the time, challenge me, make me feel uncomfortable, show me things that aren't just the run of the, you know, of every day that you would see no matter where you go. And I think that's an important piece too, right? Finding that company or that agency that can help accomplish that. Yeah.
Brian Rowley:And to your earlier point,
Laura Smith:it's about making them an extension of your team. Like right now we have a marketing team. We've built a marketing team with various skill sets and focus areas, strong team, but we still have agency partners because there is expertise outside of that group that we still need, but they're an extension of the team. And I think that's the important part. You know, the whole, like, vendor versus partner, it's just such a old school horrible way of thinking about it.
Laura Smith:You have to think of it as a partner because they are an extension who gonna understand your brand, dive into your brand, and really wanna help solve the same problems that you're trying to solve internally.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. And I think that, you know, you you touch on a really big point because it's not just engaging and working with the marketing team. You know, our relationships that we have today, individuals work across the organization. They're engaged with our sales teams. They're engaged in being a part of product calls that we have.
Brian Rowley:I mean, they're literally every touch point that we have, they're a part of that. And I think that's an important piece in order for it to work and be successful.
Laura Smith:And on that note though, the , I don't wanna say it's a danger or a risk, but it is kind of a risk, is that as you bring on agencies and you have those team member added team members, those agency, team members, you know, you don't have as much control over, you know, are they gonna move on to a different account? Are they gonna leave the agency? Whereas with you know, that people can leave your team, of course, but you see more of that. Right? They're the day to day, you might see them checking out.
Laura Smith:You might see them you know, their vibe. But when you have an agency partner, you and you rely on them so much, you never know what the end result's gonna be. So I guess there's just that that partnership you wanna have, but you can't be so reliant that if somebody isn't around anymore that you can't get your job done.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. And I think, in in fairness, I do think it's more impactful when some I mean, most of the time when someone leaves in house, you have other people on the team that can pick up that function. And I think some of the challenge and some of the risk, and again, I think it depends on size of agency that you're working with, but you can run into situations where if there's turnover within the agency, it can really impact a business because there may not be people who are skilled in some of the areas that you're dependent upon, and then you're kind of stuck, right? Whereas it's almost like you can control your fate in house because you can get a better sense of people who are happy or unhappy or doing those types of things, right? So that you actually can probably control that a little bit more.
Brian Rowley:But I would say though too, I think one of the things that is nice is obviously, you know, if I flip that argument on the other and look at it from the other perspective, within agency too, you also have a lot of different levels and roles within agency. So for example, you may be working at a more senior level because the strategy or the project that you're working on requires that and you have access to that resource. Or if it's something that's more day to day, you actually have, you know, you may have a more junior role that could do that and do the day to day type stuff. So the scalability of it, I think, is is something that's actually a little bit, for me, been a benefit over the time.
Laura Smith:A 100%. And I think that's where it comes down to that hybrid model. You know, because some people say, some marketers or brands will say, okay, it's either like all in house or agency or hybrid. Like, think those are the three obviously ways to look at it. And from our perspective and how we've been managing it, and it's working very well, is the hybrid model.
Brian Rowley:Like, you
Laura Smith:can't staff up the whole team. I mean, you and I have had conversations, you know, about, like, planning for the future. Is it building the team bigger? Is it using more agency resources? Like, what where how where do we go?
Laura Smith:And so we're in this bit of a time frame where we have to think about that, and a lot of marketers do. But I think right now that hybrid model works very effectively for us from a cost or a process, from an expertise perspective, really across the board, but doesn't mean that always will work. It could be based on our size of our company, the needs we have, etcetera.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I mean, I guess from your perspective, I mean, now that you've been on both sides of it, I mean, are there things that you see differently or view differently than you did when you were looking at it from the lens of an agency?
Laura Smith:Well, no. I mean, first of all, like my experience, I mean, I spent so many years in agency. I love that experience for all those years, but like I love being in house now. Like this is from a from a being a marketer, this is where like I find like the passion and interest in driving the business and building a team and moving it forward. But coming over I mean, you know this.
Laura Smith:Like, we came over. I came over and was like, okay. Who are agency partners? So, like, I knew we needed that help. Right?
Laura Smith:We were a very small team then, but it it was automatic that, yes. And, you know, we kinda had to dig through and figure out which agency partners were right for us and really making sure they were an extension of our team, and we've kind of built that that arsenal of partners along the way. But to me, it was a no brainer. Like, we I know we don't have all that expertise in house, and I know the value that agencies can bring to help us as long as we pick the right one. So I see the hybrid model working, and I probably would always follow that model as long as I could.
Laura Smith:You know, I always have been intrigued though by the in house agency, like companies like Liberty Mutual. They have a full agency in house. But they do use agency partners too. So they're even hybrid, but they're just real I mean, obviously, a large organization, but they have a fully staffed, creative team and marketing team. So I could you know, that always does intrigue me.
Laura Smith:It's like, wow. Imagine working for, like, a big company like that and still being in the agency world, but working for, you know, in house. It it's a different dynamic, but it seems to work for some of those companies.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. When I was at Verizon, I mean, they used a big agency. So it wasn't it wasn't I mean, there were a lot of things that were done in house, but the bulk of that work was also, was done through agency, right? All that creative, all of that. I mean, if you think about it, to be able to pull like, just as an example, a creative team in house and multiple roles of creativity in house, that's an expensive undertaking, right?
Brian Rowley:Because you've got a lot of different skill sets there that you need to pull into, you know, be able to do it really, really well. And I think that's one of the things that I've always been most impressed with with the agency work that we've done is just the level of knowledge and creativity in agency. Again, finding the right one is important. Right? And we've also had, you know, if we look at it from the other side, we've also had relationships where, you know, we've been like, that is the worst creative I've ever seen.
Brian Rowley:But we, but the bulk of what we've seen, I think is, we've seen really good work come from the agencies that we work with. So I think the selection process is critical, just like anything right? Making sure that you've got the right ones that align with the team, the vision, and actually have that skill set to be able to get you where you wanna get to.
Laura Smith:Yeah, because there's also a lot of controversy around that, like pitch process, that RFP process, you know, being on the agency The worst
Brian Rowley:process ever.
Laura Smith:Ever. And so, I mean, the agency side, it was, like, the worst, but, like, some people thrive off of that, you know, like, new business people, but that's fine. But being, even on our side, like, we didn't go through that. You know, we also had the benefit of being the size that we are. We had to evaluate a few, but it wasn't that arduous process.
Laura Smith:And that, I think, in the industry, as marketers, as, you know, people that, you know, own brand or CMOs or whoever, I feel like that can be such a pain point, and that industry has kind of evolved it, but not really. So there has to be a better way, and I think we did a good job of following the right protocols, but not putting any agency through a process that makes them spin and spend so much time and energy to potentially not get anything out of it.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I mean, because if if we're being honest, I mean, learning a brand is not easy. It's probably one of the biggest cons, I would say, in terms of in house versus agency. Right? That because you have to I mean, an agency would know an industry.
Brian Rowley:They would know other companies that they've been able to work for. But to understand your own brand, our brand, right? Like look at us. We've been here, you know, each of us have been here for just about two years. And we still learn every single day, and we're around it every single day.
Brian Rowley:We're listening to the lingo, we're listening to the conversations, we're doing all of that, and we still are learning. So it's really, it is a big undertaking to be able to learn a brand and to be able to represent it. We've been very fortunate. We have great partners who have done a really good job who, quite honestly, I would put them out in front of any customer just like I would our own sales teams because I think there's that much knowledge that they have. But I would say that that is one of the things that's probably a little bit more challenging and probably could be viewed as probably one of the larger cons is just the ramp up time to get comfortable with the brand.
Laura Smith:Yeah. Well, it's interesting because we recently had a conversation with Dave Haynes, and he mentioned the fact that, you know, in house sorry, agency PR people, he's, you know, he's like, they're writing press releases. They don't understand the business or the technology. And in some cases, true. Like, they're, you know, they're having to, like, fake it till they make it because they're not in the engineer's brain, or they only know what the engineers or the CTO, whoever is telling them.
Laura Smith:So but I do think that people can get there. You know? Like, agency people can get there as long as you immerse them properly. You you know, ingrain them in the business. You make them part of the team, and they can learn as, you know, as much as someone internally can.
Laura Smith:Never to the degree because they're not living breathing every minute, but I think, you know, the other piece of it too is they have to have some of that experience and previous knowledge, but also interest. Like, that's always been my thing as a marketer in general. I have to have interest in what I'm marketing. Because if I don't, it's really hard to to do a good job of of spinning any story in a positive light without truly understanding it or having interest in it.
Brian Rowley:And and I think you've probably been in those situations where you haven't had interest. Right? I mean, I don't think you would be alone in that.
Laura Smith:Right. A 100%. Because sometimes, you know, on the agency side, you're just put on a client piece of business. I mean, there's know, they need to staff it, you're on it, and you're just kinda dive into it. But doesn't mean you really love that that piece of business.
Laura Smith:It's just kind of what you're trained to do, and you do it because, you know, you're working on behalf of your client.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I mean, I do think that, you know, the hybrid model is probably the model. But I guess for people that are making the decision, I mean, what what what advice do you give them when they're sort of deciding how to structure the marketing team? Given that you've been on both sides?
Laura Smith:Yeah. I mean, you know, we went through this. Right? So we had to think about the roles in which we need. I think it okay.
Laura Smith:What's the business? It's going back to, like, the larger strategic initiatives of the business. What are we trying to accomplish? What channels or areas of expertise do we think will help us do that in house? Because we want that to be in house, to have that constant running engine of work and activity and and knowledge.
Laura Smith:And then what can we say? Okay. We might not have this skill set in house, but if we outsource this, if we brought a partner in, that we could be just as effective. Or maybe it's okay if that takes more time to ramp up. So think of evaluate the business need.
Laura Smith:And I think when we came in here, Brian, it was a lot of starting anew, rebuilding. So, you know, a lot of things have been done. There were some foundational elements there for sure, and we had to prioritize what do we need to tackle first to have the more immediate impact. And then I think you look at it that way, but knowing that we were always gonna have to bring on partners along the way because it wasn't gonna be done. And it takes time to hire.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I think the hiring part is another thing. If you look at hiring a good resource from a marketing perspective, no matter what that role is, it takes time. I mean, we've been through a lot of hiring from our team. And it took us a lot longer than I think either of us anticipated it would just because, you know, you're out there, you're trying to understand, you know, what's the most important skill set that we're shooting for?
Brian Rowley:Where are we trying to get to? And, you know, identifying those individuals is not always the easiest. But I would say that I think you do have to, as you're trying to figure it out, I do also think you have to be really honest about what your strengths and weaknesses are. And I think some people have difficulty in being able to be honest with themselves about that. Just because someone does something once doesn't necessarily mean they're the best at it.
Brian Rowley:Or that that just because they've been able to do it, like, it's almost like fake it till you make it. And that doesn't work when you're trying to build a marketing strategy. So I think understanding your skills internally and then being able to supplement them with some of the work at an agency is an important piece in that evaluation process.
Laura Smith:Absolutely. I think the other thing too we need to consider is at what point do you have, like, a red flag where this isn't working? You know? Like, maybe the model isn't working where hybrid model or all agency or all in house. And I think that's where, you know, kinda going back to the honesty of it all is you have to see, right, are we meeting the objectives?
Laura Smith:Are the business goals being met? And where are they falling short? And then how do you make the change? And I and and that's where you have to make those harder decisions of, like, you know, okay. Well, if this isn't being met, can we supplement it in a house?
Laura Smith:Or is it not being met in a house? Do you supplement externally? So I I think it's just being mindful of recognizing where red flags may exist, and then just being ready to pivot if you need to.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I think if you are if you do what we had mentioned, which is make the agency a part of your team though, I don't know that it's necessarily red flags because I think you treat the feedback that you would provide to the agency the same as you would provide to the internal team, right? I mean, feedback is a gift. We know that, right? To Bob.
Brian Rowley:Bob Osmond. Yep. Thanks to Bob. He made that very clear to us. But I think, you know, there have been many times where we've had conversations where we have said, I don't like that work.
Brian Rowley:That, no, we missed the mark here. That's not, and I think being able to have those conversations just as you would your own internal team are the things that are needed in order for it to work and be successful.
Laura Smith:Well, I think anyone that works with us knows.
Brian Rowley:There's
Laura Smith:just there is we are very honest.
Brian Rowley:We're just feedback.
Laura Smith:Yes. You're going to get feedback. You're going to know if we like it or not, but we'll work together to get to that end result, which whether that's an internal problem to solve or with a partner. We are we we do not hold back. I'm sure Joey Joe, the producer, would agree with that feedback.
Laura Smith:Yeah. We're getting a thumbs up.
Brian Rowley:Thumbs up. Joey's worked with us way too long. Well, Laura, let's actually address let's let's switch gears here just for a second. Let let's address some of the myths that are floating around about in house and agency. Because I think if we're honest, we've all heard them and some are sort of, I would say, long overdue for a reality check.
Brian Rowley:So let me throw these out there and get your overall thoughts in regards to it. In house teams are faster.
Laura Smith:Probably. It could be. It, I think it depends, but sometimes it can be because they have five people on one team that can crank out something you need, but we'd have one person to that same assignment, potentially. Like, I'm thinking about a creative project in that way. So I think it it can be, but sometimes agencies over process, and it may not be faster.
Laura Smith:So, I just think it depends.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. What about agencies are too expensive?
Laura Smith:That also depends. They don't have to be too expensive. I think if you get the right size and scale to match your business needs, not so much. Make sure scoping projects appropriately. Like, I don't think I mean, again, coming from the agency side, I'd have to convince many a client or potential clients that it's not.
Laura Smith:It's that the dollars are worth the value and the output. So and you gotta think about internal costs. If you have overhead, if you have if you have a body, there's a lot more cost to it. So you just have to evaluate it from that perspective. But I think there can be very efficient ways to scope and to scale and to find the partner that will do that with you.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I think I think, again, that's a that's sort of one of those topics that you have to look at yourself in the process. Because I think a lot of times the expense is a result of a lack of structure within an organization. It's not always, right? But if you look at how many times someone sends something back for revisions, or you send something out for input, and then you give back, and, you know, the agency then goes and reworks what you've said and then you send it out again and someone, you know, something hadn't changed, but someone says, oh yeah, I really, by the way, I didn't really like that prior.
Brian Rowley:And then it's just constant rework, right? I think, I think you have to be organized in in what your ask is. I think scope is incredibly important because, I mean, I fought this battle for years of people saying, oh, agency's way too expensive. Agency's way too expensive. And, you know, I mean, a CFO perspective and, you know, from the finance side, it's one of the first things they always look at.
Brian Rowley:Because it's a guaranteed monthly, I mean, we did a lot of retainer work, right? Less project work. So they would say, okay, every month. But then when you start to look at burn rates at the agency and how much time they're spending in doing all of that, it's like you are getting the value out of it. It's just that a lot of it is your own dysfunction internally that's causing hours to burn up, which then causes expenses to go up.
Brian Rowley:So, I mean, I think there's multiple ways to look at that. How about in house teams lack creativity?
Laura Smith:I I would disagree with that. I think there's many First of creativity can come from a lot of different places. Right? It doesn't just come from creative teams. So I think it depends on the organization you're in.
Laura Smith:I would say our company, like our team and beyond even, there's a ton of creativity Yeah. In house. It doesn't mean they're actually doing the creative, but they have a lot of, you know, vision, and so I think that yeah. I mean, think there's probably many companies that don't have you know, they're just kind of very structured or analytical in in their roles or their how the organization runs, so they don't have creativity. But I wouldn't say in house teams lack it.
Laura Smith:I definitely think if you're hiring a creative team or agency, they're gonna have more. That just isn't
Brian Rowley:Well, what it I think the reality of it is is in a smaller organization, the chances that you would have a creative team in house is pretty, pretty rare. Because that's out of all the roles from a marketing perspective that you would look at, creative is probably one of the easier ones to work with an agency on. And probably one of the ones that's actually more costly to bring in house.
Laura Smith:But that goes back to my point though. Creativity doesn't come from just creative people.
Brian Rowley:Agreed. Agreed. Right.
Laura Smith:Looking at it from
Brian Rowley:that content side, right? Yeah. But I think when you look at how do I tackle a problem? How do I approach, you know, a customer situation in a different way? That's levels of creativity as well.
Brian Rowley:And I personally think, you know, we're very fortunate because I think across our organization, we have a lot of incredibly creative people. People who know the business, who have done things along. But that's not always the case. Some people do sit in their chairs and they just, you know, check the boxes and do their work and aren't always as creative as they could be. But we're very fortunate.
Brian Rowley:We don't actually have that. That is an issue. Agencies are better for big picture thinking, and in house is better for execution.
Laura Smith:And that could be the case. That could be the case. I think it depends on, again, the type of agency. If you go into like a creative agency who needs a concept for a new brand, a new brand campaign, that's gonna be better suited externally. But some agencies are just really good at execution.
Laura Smith:Like, you may hire them just for execute executing a ton of ton of creative work or ads or just buying, media, for instance. So I think it could be though, because if you're thinking about those larger campaigns and those, bigger brand, maybe identity projects, you need more of that external perspective and facilitation and experience to help with that. But it's not to say that execution there aren't just agents aren't aren't agencies that are really great at execution, and that's what you need sometimes because you need someone to crank out the work, and that's okay to bring someone on just to do that.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I think they bring an interesting perspective. I do think they have exposure to more companies within an industry. If you're, you know, obviously as part of your selection process with an agency, you're making sure that they're aligned with, you know, you as a business and have experience in, for example, tech and being able to manage that and know some of the other players. So I think some of the work that they have and exposure they have do give them opportunity for a bigger picture in terms of perspectives.
Brian Rowley:But I would agree. I do think in house for execution could go either way. I've seen agencies execute really, really well because they don't get caught up in who they're talking to and the roles that they're playing with. It's just like, we've got a task to do. You're paying me to do this.
Brian Rowley:Get out of my way. Let's get this done, right? Right. And I think that's an important piece where sometimes people get caught up internally on some of the executions. So I think that one for me could go either way.
Laura Smith:Brian, I feel like this has been a very good discussion, maybe because we're just talking to each other and we find ourselves to be interesting. However, I do think we You brought up some
Brian Rowley:were interesting.
Laura Smith:I said our conversation
Brian Rowley:is interesting. Oh, okay. Alright. Good. Good.
Laura Smith:Good. Thanks for the clarity. But but I feel like there have been some topics that maybe a little people have very different perspectives. So I am interested in, you know, as we as we roll this out, if people do chime in to hear if they agree with us or disagree with us because it is a it's an age old topic. It's one that I don't think I think it's changed over time, the model in which people or marketers are thinking about using, and it's our experience specific that we could bring into this.
Laura Smith:So I think it was good to be able to do that. But, obviously, there's many other perspectives, so we welcome those perspectives if they're out there. And, we wanna thank everyone for listening today. And most importantly, if you like what you heard, be sure to follow us.
