Building a Marketing Culture That Values Both Creativity and Process
You know, rules are good until they become cages. So don't contain it so much where it doesn't allow you to have any freedom.
Brian Rowley:Welcome to Prose + Comms: Engagement, Unplugged. I'm Brian Rowley.
Laura Smith:And I'm Laura Smith.
Brian Rowley:And today we're taking on a topic that's kind of an interesting one. And, you know, in this fast paced world that we all live in, teams are under a tremendous amount of pressure to both be innovative and reliable. But I think too often organizations tend to lean one way or another. And today's episode is about how to build a culture where creativity can thrive alongside strong execution. And creativity and process are often seen as opposites.
Brian Rowley:But Laura and I today are going to we're just going to talk a little bit about, you know, how you create an environment that sort of encourages experimentation while still delivering results consistently. And we'll explore why balancing that creativity and structure is actually one of the biggest challenges and opportunities, quite honestly, facing marketing and sort of CX teams today. And so Laura, I don't know about you, but I'm ready to jump in.
Laura Smith:Yeah. And obviously we don't have a guest here, so we are our own guests, which is very exciting.
Brian Rowley:Needs them? Who needs them? It's all about us today.
Laura Smith:Yeah. I think this is super exciting because I feel like coming from a world where I worked in agencies with a lot of creative folks, you know, the creativity piece, the balance of process to creativity is always a battle. You know? Like, create a lot of times and not yeah. Not everyone's we're not talking about just creative teams, but being able to be creative always felt like, don't put the boundaries around us.
Laura Smith:Make make let us just free flow and think of ideas. And, obviously, that sounds great in theory, but you have clients, you have projects, you have deadlines. So isn't there can't there be a balance between coming up with really cool ideas and great ideas and also being able to have a little bit of structure around it? I think it is there there can be a balance, but I do think it's a fine line because I believe that creativity does need to have some loosened kind of parameters around it.
Brian Rowley:I I would agree. I mean, I I do think that the two can coexist, and I think that they can, but to your point, I think there's a lot of people out there that would say, no, I can't be creative if I have sort of these barriers that are surrounding me, right? And these guidelines that follow. And I think that there's some truth behind that. But I also, I don't know how you feel about it, but I mean, oftentimes you hear people say sort of that, you know, ideas sort of spark the innovation, but without them, like you can't execute anything.
Brian Rowley:So what is the whole purpose of having like all these processes if you can't allow people to be creative?
Laura Smith:Yeah. And I think something I read recently was, you know, rules are good until they become cages. So don't contain it so much where it doesn't allow you to have any freedom. And I think I've been in I've been in certain environments where there's no process. You know, Ryan, I think we could both agree when we both started here.
Laura Smith:At Bright side, it was like, had a great process. There wasn't always process, or we were, you know, changing how we were doing things, so we had a great process. And without that process, there was a lot of, like, friction. It was hard. So it's like you could be in environments like that that are just it's hard to get work done.
Laura Smith:But then I've also been in super creative environments where I'm like, don't make us over process because then we're not getting to the creativity. So I think there's an extreme. Right? There's a there's that balance of process used as guardrails, but not as those, I guess, those cages is what, you know, as we're talking about that because that's when it becomes restrictive.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I agree. But I think that there is some truth to the comment of, you know, that, like, complete freedom does create chaos. And I mean, and I would say that depending upon the type of team that you're working with, do have like, because you can just put people into a room. I mean, we see this happen all the time, right?
Brian Rowley:You throw out a topic and you've got everyone's opinion in every different direction around every possible outcome to that conversation. And yes, that creativity around the way people think and, you know, diversity of thought and all those things are really, really important. But I would say that I don't know that it can just exist on its own because I do think it can cause a tremendous amount of chaos.
Laura Smith:Yeah. I think like, I think about like a brainstorm environment, which I kinda miss those, like, in room brainstorming kind of experiences. I don't have have those as much anymore. But, you know, sometimes, like, the best brainstorms I always felt, like, was when there's there's rules. There's, like, expectation setting at the beginning, but then it's just let people go.
Laura Smith:And just, like, plug those ideas on the wall. Like, just put them up. Like, don't even like, don't judge them. Don't don't peel back layers. Just get the thinking out because people have that freedom to think.
Laura Smith:Then that's where, like then then eventually, there has to be process put around that. But I think when you go into a room and you're like, here are all the ways in which we're gonna spend five minutes doing this, ten minutes doing this, twenty minutes doing that. To me, that's just stifling because
Brian Rowley:I agree.
Laura Smith:Oh, Is there my five minutes up? Oh, no. No. You know? So I think you have to just really let people I think creativity just does have to feel like there's, like, this let me just, like, have it happen.
Laura Smith:That's why a lot of people say a lot of their creative thinking or their ideation or whatever will come out when they're, like, on a walk by themselves or in the shower in the morning. There are no rules around that in those time frames. Right? There's just like, I'm just able to think freely. So if I put that in the environment of, like, a work environment, it shouldn't be much different.
Laura Smith:Yes. You don't want chaos, but maybe there needs to be less guardrails for true creative thinking to take place.
Brian Rowley:Do you think that companies that put, like, for example, Friday's afternoons from two to four is gonna be our creativity brainstorming time. Like, do you think that works?
Laura Smith:No. I mean, that's like forced forced forced. Like, you're four okay. Like, what if my brain doesn't wanna be creative between two and four? Like, what if my creativity comes at Monday morning at 9AM?
Laura Smith:I mean, or today on Monday at 04:30 in the afternoon? You know, I think that that's, you can't force that to happen. I think I think companies need to be able to give people flexibility to identify times, you know, in in areas in which they can be their, you know, their their creative thinker or have those moments to, like, what we all like, what I love to talk about, do walk and talks. That's a two person brainstorm or a three person brainstorm, but you're outside of the walls of, like, being on screen or being in front of people and more so just being outside and just thinking and and just ripping off ideas and just trying to figure out what sticks.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I I think there's a true, you know, I think there's a definitely an approach to it that I think corporate has tried to structure. And I think that's the part for me that is most challenging in regards to it. Because to your point, at 02:00 in the afternoon, that may not be my creative time. During a walk and talk, that also might not be my creative time, but it could be someone else's.
Brian Rowley:I think the flexibility part is a really important piece to that conversation to be able to, you know, have that flexibility to be able to engage and interact in different places and, you know, not be stifled by, oh, I got to make sure I get back to my desk or I need to make sure that I am a part of this call or this because that's part of what's happening during the course of that day.
Laura Smith:Yeah. Yeah. And if you think about it, you know, like with process, that's like you're building predictability. Like you're trying to like, okay, right, you're trying to think, okay, like there's a timeline, there's like an end goal we're trying to work towards as roles and responsibilities, all of that. But if you're thinking about what we're trying to do is influence an end customer, like, they're not predictable.
Laura Smith:So why wouldn't we use the same like, I'm kind of going against the process the process argument here because it's like process is predictability. We're trying to build out a plan. We wanna make sure that we're getting things done on time, on budget, whatever else. And but what we're building isn't necessarily predictable. Like, the the people we're trying to influence aren't predictable.
Laura Smith:Potentially, the experience that we're trying to create isn't predictable. So I think sometimes we have think of it that way too is how we come up with the ideas should be just as strong or or the or I guess you could say, like, they can be built the same way that we're trying to have the end outcome be influenced. So I don't know.
Brian Rowley:I I I guess it's we have to think about what we're trying to get to and not overengineer. Because I I agree. I I think the one thing, though, that I think is important to mention is if you're if you're just constantly throwing out new ideas and they never make it to execution, does that not cause burnout across a team of creatives or are creatives really just there to throw the ideas out there and whether they get executed and implemented is not part of the equation? Or do people like to see that come full circle and actually see their creativity, you know, turn into something?
Laura Smith:Yeah. I think I think the execution piece is an important piece because I mean, every big idea So needs to be like any of us can come up crazy ideas and then never know how to get it done. So I feel like that's just that's a miss. So I definitely think the execution piece is super important. I just don't know how policed that needs to be, you know, for people.
Laura Smith:And I think sometimes, like, you know, like, there are people who are built who love process, who will get anxious without it at all. Mhmm. And then there are people who love to overprocess, which then people don't get things done. If you overprocess, that's like, what do we just do besides check some boxes? You know?
Laura Smith:We're going through a process right now of implementing a project management tool to help us be more efficient and get things done and hold people accountable and all that. But to some degree, I could argue as I'm I'm in the tool right now every day. Like, sometimes I'm just like, okay. I'm getting things done. Am I taking the time to be creative when I'm reviewing or when I'm assessing some of the work that's coming through the pipeline?
Laura Smith:It feels like it's like a just like an engine running, and work comes in and work goes out, and work comes in and work goes out. And sometimes that does take away some of that creativity. So I personally feel like I need to step away and just, like, take the time to review or assess what the assignment is outside of that tool because a tool can really make you just so thoughtful of box checking.
Brian Rowley:Well, I guess I look at that a little differently though, because I look at the tool as a place to organize your thoughts, not necessarily stifle them, but to organize them. So, hey, I'm launching this as an example, right? It needs to have, I need to make sure that I'm taking into account through this process, all of these different pieces. And that boils down to accountability versus stifling creativity. And I think that tool helps you to organize those things.
Brian Rowley:So for me, I don't think that I would look at that the same way as, oh, that's preventing me from being creative. I actually think that's helping me be more effective in what I am creating because I'm taking into account all the important pieces that are, you know, impacted by whatever this is that I'm actually working on or trying to get out into the market.
Laura Smith:I think it's good at organizing. I don't think it's a platform for creative thinking. Think Completely agree. So like, sure, organizing, but I think it's then okay. Like, well then how do I step out of that and then make sure the creativity is still flowing without feeling like there's like a timeline in a box checking situation.
Laura Smith:So that's where I think it's the balance of being able to be you know, like, have your the ability to kind of, like, carve out that time to get out of the timeline mindset because you're constantly in a tool all day. That's kind of what it's there for to then make sure that you're being you're allowing yourself that freedom to be to be creative. And and I think I think that, like, the the perfect world is there there is like, we started with. Like, there's a balance of both. I just would love to, like, talk to people in different places, in the in the marketing roles, whether it be agency, whether it be in a house, that feel like they have that perfect balance.
Laura Smith:Because I don't think I've experienced or seen it in my career yet.
Brian Rowley:Well, I think you see two forms. Right? You see in bigger companies, you see a lot of process and less creativity. And I think in the startup environment, you see more creativity and a little less process. So I think the balance of that is something that can be difficult to achieve.
Brian Rowley:But I want to step back for a second because when we first started this discussion, we talked about sort of the process is more of a guardrail. And does it come down to how we actually define what process is? Because we defined it as a guardrail. But then we also just said that the tool that we're using as a place to organize thoughts and does organizing thoughts necessarily have to translate to process? I don't know that I think that that's necessary.
Brian Rowley:So are we putting too much emphasis on the process element of this? And really, you know, if we looked at that a little bit differently, would we really have the same opinion?
Laura Smith:I don't know. I don't know. I don't even know if I'm necessarily following that thought. I don't know. Like what like No,
Brian Rowley:no, no, because I'm saying that we said the role of processes is to put guardrails. But is it? Or is it or like guardrails to me is a term that would sometimes indicate like restriction. And I'm saying that process could be a place for you just to organize yourself. And I think it depends on how much emphasis you put on it because I don't necessarily look at it as a guardrail.
Brian Rowley:I might just look at it and say, okay, it's a place for me to think of things, but I don't necessarily look at it as being restrictive. And I think if you do, then I would say that, it could stifle creativity. But if you look at it as a place to organize some of the thoughts that are going through your head, I don't know if that's the same answer.
Laura Smith:Yeah. I mean, I feel like the process has so many components of it. Right? There's, like, there's reviews, there's cycles, there's deadlines, there's budgets, there's, you know, races, like roles and responsibility categorizations, all those things. And I think if all of those elements are applied and used to the point of, like, you know, this is the this is the way in which we work, always work, and we cannot miss a a beat of any of this, then I think that's really hard.
Laura Smith:But I think if of course, I believe in some process because I think without it, it becomes mayhem to some degree. Right? So, I mean, I think, like, you when you and I first started, we were just like, we're just winging this. We're just running with things, and we're gonna make stuff happen, and we're gonna figure it out and document it later. But that was, like, not you know, as we grew the team, that wasn't sustainable because people are like, how do you do this?
Laura Smith:It's like, I don't know. We just figured out the first time. You know? So I think that so you need some of it, but but I don't I don't think right now we're over processed, as an organization because we are. We, you know, we definitely much more of the creativity is where, like, a lot of the ideas sit in across all departments.
Laura Smith:But I think that there is you need some of that, but maybe not all elements of it. And like I said, I've been in places where it is so overprocessed that it just removes any bit of, quote, unquote, fun. And process is fun for some people, just not for everybody. And I personally would rather more creativity and less process, but, you know, at least some of both, whereas some people are, you know, the opposite. So I think it's that's what that's what comes back to that balance because then you can kind of address everybody's needs and concerns.
Laura Smith:And I you know, and we just had this conversation the other day, someone on our team, and I brought this up to you about, like, do we need stand ups? Which I worked in organizations, and every day there was a stand up, and we had to talk about all the things that were going on and, like, check those boxes and make sure this is done. Sometimes that was to help organize and to reprioritize, but sometimes that's just like, oh my gosh. Can we just go and get the work done so we're not talking about the work so much? Like, let's just, you know, trust that we can all just know our know our deadlines, know the balance of work prioritization, and then just go and do the work and, you know, have that creativity come out.
Laura Smith:So I you know, I'm sure there's so many differences of opinions out there because people live by stand ups every day in a lot of in a lot of industries.
Brian Rowley:Do you think bureaucracy and process are the same?
Laura Smith:No. I don't think they're the same. I feel like that I think process is under the umbrella of bureaucracy because I think it is about, like, you need to make sure the right people are reviewing and checking the boxes. Right? We need to make sure that the right people and the stakeholders are involved, but that's just a piece of process.
Laura Smith:What do you think?
Brian Rowley:No. I I think I I think that, yes. I I do think that some process is interpreted as bureaucracy. Yeah, because if you think about it, like why are you going through the process, right? What do you know, truly in a creative environment, I don't know that you need as many checks and balances as some companies.
Brian Rowley:Again, I think it depends on the type of company that you're working for. Larger organizations, there's tons of checks and balances, and that's not necessarily bad, but it does stifle creativity a bit, no matter how you look at it. You look at any of, I think it was probably in the late nineties, early two thousands where you had think tanks and you had all these big concepts that were going around businesses to try to get people to be creative within these large organizations. But at the same time, you're sitting there saying, but you have to do this, this, this, this, this. And it's like, well, you just sort of defeated the whole purpose of what you were trying to do.
Laura Smith:Yeah. But, Brian, think about we had a meeting this morning about making sure we're following process for a creative something. Right? So, like, no. These people have to see it before it goes live.
Laura Smith:Like, we cannot just run with this. We need to make sure we have the right people involved because they're stakeholders in this situation. So I don't think you could ever remove that because there are people that have a say depending on how it impacts what's in the market or potential customers or, you know, existing customers. So I think you have to there always has to be that set of, like, reviews, but, like, what I think where I think a lot of creatives would say would be the more reviews, the more watered down the idea is. Because if you have so many cooks in the kitchen and so many people have the opportunity to have their own stamp on it, they're potentially taking away from the essence of the original idea.
Laura Smith:And that I do believe can happen. I think you can't just let it continue to be reviewed and reviewed and reviewed either by more people or the same people so many times because everyone's gonna find something, have an opinion on something. So I think it's unless it's, like, the league legally, it's wrong or, you know, you can't say that's an accurate statement or whatever that may be, you gotta let some of that creative just be put into market and see what happens, you know, and not feel like because everyone assumes people always don't people don't always assume good intent. So I think that they think that, no. No.
Laura Smith:No. This is gonna offend so and so. Well, mean, I there are focus groups in this research that people do for large campaigns. They try to you know, that's a barrier. They try to, obviously, get over before going to market.
Laura Smith:But some of the smaller stuff things we do, we don't, you know, we don't test it before we go out to market. So some of it's just, like, gut where that someone says, I don't really like it for this reason. Well, are we gonna are we gonna take that feedback, are we gonna try to see if it resonates?
Brian Rowley:Well, I mean, let's be honest with one another. We have all been in the situations where you've got people who are just constantly throwing ideas out, and you're like, how the hell are we supposed to implement that? Like, that's impossible, like for this reason, this reason and that reason. Right? So, I mean, there is the whole dreamers and doers concept, right?
Brian Rowley:And, you know, I don't believe that those need to be separate or different environments because I do think in order for you to be, and again, I do also think it depends on what, to some degree, what you're talking about, because I do think that if you've got a bunch of people that are sitting in a room coming up with ideas, they also have to think of the consequences of what does that mean to the other organizations within the business, as well as understand the impacts of those decisions. So, you know, I mean, I I do think that everybody does need to have and embrace some level of structure.
Laura Smith:Yeah. I mean, this goes back to the old, you know, theory around, like, everyone thinks they're a marketer. Right? I mean, everyone thinks they're marketers. They can come up with any idea because I think that's, like, the that's the easy part of, you know, coming up with ideas, but it's like, okay.
Laura Smith:Well, that's you know? Like, right. How does that execute? How does that resonate? What does the oh, who's the audience?
Laura Smith:You know? Because, yeah, we could all be creative thinkers. No doubt.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I mean, so so the question becomes is, you know, how do you create frameworks that combine both of these?
Laura Smith:And I think that's hard. I think going back to that, like, from a leadership perspective, I think we have to create environments that allow for the balance, and that balance needs to just feel like a balance for all parties involved. Right? Because, again, like I said, like, I would rather more lean into more creative and then less process. You might say, I want more process, less creative, whatever that may be, but we've had and the and the team members have to feel that same alignment around where that balance lies because you can't ignore either.
Laura Smith:And I think it's just a matter of making sure it works for everybody because some people do get stifled by too much process and potentially by too much freedom with creativity. That's too sometimes that's too the the white the blank canvas scares people. So you have to be able to meet
Laura Smith:in the middle, I think, as leaders and how to really promote coming up with these ideas or executing on some of these things that need to happen within the organization.
Brian Rowley:I think that everybody tilts one direction or the other. I think it's very difficult to find someone who's able to achieve both. I I definitely think you move closer to one than you do to the other. And I bet I could I do think that
Laura Smith:I bet I could, like, easily just among our team, I could probably, like, easily rank who who likes which side better. Just because I I agree with you. Like That's
Brian Rowley:what I'm saying.
Brian Rowley:they always in every organization, someone always tilts a little bit heavier in one direction than they do in the other, even though they may be able to accomplish both.
Laura Smith:I will bet, though, that Joey Joe, our producer, definitely leans more on the creative side than he does in the process side based on our experience. Right, Joey?
Producer Joey:Big time. Process. Oh my gosh. It's nice. It helps.
Producer Joey:But once you start, like, getting into third round of review, fourth round of review, Let's oh, there's the stakeholder that I completely forgot needs to see this now, you know, and you're five weeks into a creative project. Everything typically goes to hell. So process is good. It keeps things in check, keeps people honest, but it's really one of the true enemies of good creative in my opinion.
Brian Rowley:But Joey, do you still think that's the case? Like, so if you're out there and you're, think about it just from the creative side itself though. The idea that process exists doesn't necessarily, does it actually, I don't know what I, I'm answering this for you, but I don't want to, but do you think it actually Oh
Laura Smith:you will anyway.
Brian Rowley:I will anyways. Do you think it actually stifles your creativity?
Producer Joey:No. You know, maybe in a vacuum, no, it doesn't.
Brian Rowley:Cause you're a pretty creative guy. So I can't see like that getting in the way. You're a very creative guy, actually. I can't see that actually getting in the way. I can see downstream when you start to do things into your point, going through your, you know, fourth rev of something.
Brian Rowley:But the initial task of, I mean, we do it all the time with you, right? We're like, Joey, make me uncomfortable. Go get creative on us. And so there's process associated with that, but I don't know that Kind of not though.
Laura Smith:But kind of not though, Brian. Like, we do get But
Brian Rowley:eventually there is.
Laura Smith:Well, right. Eventually there's gonna a deadline. There's gonna be a budget. But Mhmm. We open up that, like like, we're we're opening up that window for Joey at certain times and team to basically be like, just go.
Laura Smith:Like, let like yeah. Like, make us uncomfortable. Challenge us. This is what we're trying to accomplish, but we don't really know how to do it. That is giving creative freedom, and that doesn't happen all the time.
Producer Joey:If I may, I think in our line of work, in marketing, creative agencies, the like, it's absolutely necessary. So I was was talking in more of a romantic kind of creative sense, you know, then it's any kind of process, like, keep it away from me. I just wanna be here with my canvas and I want to do whatever the hell I want. I want to take as long as it takes to get it done. But in our line of work, you know, process is 100% necessary.
Producer Joey:But I think case by case, you got to know when to pump the brakes a little bit, let the creatives do their thing, you know, trust that they need a little bit more time because of x and y, and there's probably a good reason, but still, you know, keep them honest, question what they're doing. It's really you've really gotta work together to see things through, but yeah.
Laura Smith:Yeah. Look at that. We we said we didn't have a guest, but who knew? Surprise, surprise, Joey.
Brian Rowley:Joey can Joey come?
Laura Smith:Joey Wip is our guest. Thanks, Joey, chiming in. We love it.
Brian Rowley:Oh, my pleasure.
Laura Smith:Okay, Brian. Well, I mean, I feel like I feel like we've talked. I mean, you know, I feel like we've about this a lot. And so I think it's I would love to hear other people have to say, though, because I think people in our networks and all that in our world, especially because we we are in a creative industry, that I think that it'd be interesting to hear what people have to say and if people have found the right balance and how maybe they they do that. But, before that, let's get into this, you know, you and I busting some myths, going back and forth a bit like we've done before in our in our one on one episodes, and we're gonna talk about, some of these ideas about creative and process.
Laura Smith:And we're gonna say, are they, myths, or are they actually truth? Truth or myth. Tell me what you got. Are you ready to fight out? Truth or myth.
Laura Smith:So I'm gonna start. Process kills creativity. I don't I don't know if it
Brian Rowley:kills it. I definitely think it can stifle it. I'm not sure that it kills it.
Laura Smith:Yeah. I buy that. I think, again, we like, we talked about, like, what level of process? Like, how over processed is it? You know what?
Laura Smith:I don't think it needs to kill it by any means. I agree.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. How about creativity ignores strategy?
Laura Smith:No. I don't think so at all because the creativity is coming out from a strategy. Like, there's a strategy that is in place for creatives to then go and figure out how to solve for that and address, you know, the audience based on needs and wants and things like that. So no. I think I think I think that's false.
Brian Rowley:I would agree.
Laura Smith:Creativity can't be measured.
Brian Rowley:I think that's false. I think you absolutely can measure it.
Laura Smith:I mean, people do all the time. You know, they measure. I mean Of course. Ads or any kind of creativity.
Brian Rowley:Right. I mean, sentiments, you know, how people react, respond, all of those types of things are, I mean, you measure that. We measure that every day.
Laura Smith:And listen, and our whole conversation with Joe P, like that was all about, like, are creative experiences he's creating with his teams and they're measuring them. There's different levels of measurements. So a 100%, that's not true. Okay.
Brian Rowley:Creative people don't like process.
Laura Smith:I mean, if I go back to my advertising days, I would say truth. But like what Joey just said, there needs to be a bit of it. So I think that they don't love it. I think I think it does make a lot of like the quote unquote, the ad people back, you know, at least back in their, you know, early two thousands, like, no. I can't follow process.
Laura Smith:But they would follow process, and then still great creative ideas will come out. So I think that it is a little bit of, like, an itch for them, but I don't think I think they they learn to live with it in the business. Yeah. I I think
Brian Rowley:I I would say that they do learn to live with it. I I I would say that if you asked any one of them, I'm sure they would say that they really don't like process. I think they understand it and they value the reason it exists. But in terms of what they're there to achieve and accomplish, I would say that they wouldn't, that wouldn't be something that would be high on their list of thing is, oh, give me more process in my creative
Laura Smith:Chuck some more boxes.
Brian Rowley:I that I don't see that being a response.
Laura Smith:They definitely don't wanna worry about budget. That's for sure. Yeah. Okay. Process slows down innovation.
Brian Rowley:I think that's true.
Laura Smith:I do too. Yeah. I agree.
Brian Rowley:I've seen that happen so many times. You see so many times where people, even even ourselves, right? I mean, there's oftentimes people within our organization say, oh, don't get them involved. That's going to slow things down. But at the end of the day, right, we do have a brand to protect.
Brian Rowley:We do have things that we need to be thinking of and most marketers do. It's not just us. You know, I'm a big one of, you know, we're there to protect the brand, promote the brand and be a value add to people in sales. Right? Like that's Right.
Laura Smith:Sometimes that can slow it down and that's what it is.
Brian Rowley:Yep. It can. Yep.
Laura Smith:Whose turn is it?
Brian Rowley:It's yours.
Laura Smith:I actually think it was yours. Some of the best ideas come from breaking the rules. It was definitely yours, by way. It was definitely your turn. So
Brian Rowley:think there have obviously been some good ideas that have come out of that. I think when an organization turns into the wild, wild west and people just do whatever they want, I would say that that's probably more harmful than rules themselves would be. But I do think that, yeah, there are definitely when you can open up the floodgates like we just talked to Joey about, right? When you can say, you know what, make me uncomfortable. And that that really is saying there are no rules here.
Brian Rowley:I think that's where the best ideas come from versus putting all the parameters around. It has to be like this. It has to look like this. It can't insult this person. Like, that that never works.
Laura Smith:Yeah. And I guess I was looking at that, like breaking the rules seems like it's kinda what rules? Like, you saying that that's not following process. Like breaking the rules is like, I'm not gonna listen to anything you have to say. Like, I don't know.
Laura Smith:I think like I'm sure some of these like crazy new ads and over time have been like random stuff and ideas that just kind of like, we're out there, and we're just gonna run with it. But I don't know if that I don't know how many of those ideas really existed from breaking the rules. I yeah. I think that's that's more restrictive, but okay.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. Not everyone thrives equally in high structured environments.
Laura Smith:Yes. A 100%. 100. We talked about. I mean, some people love structure, and some people do not.
Laura Smith:And I think they have we have to give people the flexibility and freedom to work in an environment that they're most comfortable knowing that they're gonna I mean, you have a job, and this is what there are rules of the road. You have to work. You have to put your time, and you have to hit your deadlines. But, yeah, you we have to be mindful of ways that people actually, like, thrive in environments and whether that's open canvases or whether that's structure, like, we just have to be we as leaders, we have to be we have to acknowledge that.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I think this is a topic that we could go on for hours and hours on. Because I I do think it's very easy to play devil's advocate on some of these. And I think that you can go in one direction or in a different direction, or depending upon the scenario, you could flip flop, right, in terms of how you're feeling about something. So, I mean, it is definitely an interesting topic and it's one that I think is a challenge for a lot of organizations.
Laura Smith:Yeah. And so we would love to hear more from any listeners that do have thoughts on this topic because one that we can all learn from, but also just to kind of, like, understand how people are balancing it and, you know, are they not potentially. And also just the different sides of it. Because I don't think like I said from the beginning, it's not creativity doesn't just come from creatives. You know?
Laura Smith:Creativity comes from anywhere on an organization at all levels, and I think that's where we have to think about it as, more generally than just actual people whose job has a creative title in it. And I think that's the same concept. It's the same concept of whether people like, you know, the the creativity side or the process side. So it is interesting. Feel like I've seen both worlds and would love to hear more from others.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I would agree. If you've got some examples, I'd love to hear more just about, like, does your organization even lean more towards creativity or process? Not even so much like whether it's, know, it gets in the way as much as where does your organization actually lean? But most importantly, thanks for listening.
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