The CX Trap: More Tech, Less Impact? Rethinking Marketing Technology for Better Customer Experience
If customers are just as satisfied, if not more, as we continue to automate and add technology, then, okay, we're doing right by our customers. If we can save money, if we can increase lifetime value or even, you know, average sale, whatever whatever some of those metrics are, then, you know, that's a win all the way around. Pros and Comms.
Brian Rowley:Welcome to Prose + Comms: Engagement, Unplugged. I'm Brian Rowley.
Laura Smith:And I'm Laura Smith.
Brian Rowley:And today Laura and I are tackling a big question and that is, is your Martech stack actually helping you deliver a better customer experience or is it just getting in the way? We're going to talk of everything from the complexity and over investment to the constant chase for that next shiny tech trend. We're exploring how CX strategies can become more bloated than beneficial and our actual guest today shares where brands actually go wrong with over engineered customer experiences and how to cut through the noise to get back to what really matters, delivering real value to your customers. So I say we jump into it.
Laura Smith:Yeah. But before we dive in with our guest, we're gonna talk about, our marketers' remorse. So we've all had those experiences, whether it be technology, whether it be campaigns, something that seemed like a good idea at the moment, but then really didn't land. So we all have those moments. So Brian and I, we could talk about ours quickly.
Laura Smith:So Brian, like, there a moment in time over your career where you made a decision whether that be technology choice that really in the end it didn't work for you?
Brian Rowley:I would say first of all, I think our producer Joey will appreciate this because during our COVID time, we actually tried this to create sort of a corporate video remotely and it involved like sending green screens to all of our executives for them to like film behind and doing all these different things and I would say although our efforts were good, it was a bit disastrous.
Greg Kihlstrom:Go big or go home, buddy.
Brian Rowley:Go big or go home was our motto for sure. But I mean, think I think those were some the things I think we all sort of get into these moments, but that was one of them. I think the, you know, another one probably for me would be just actually some of the tools that we've used, right? I mean, you come into, you know, you go into some of these pitches and you're like, this can make you more efficient. Can do all these things.
Brian Rowley:And we use one to one. I'm not going to name the tool because I don't want to do that. But it was about sort of organizing the team and pulling them all together and having visibility across your agencies and your internal teams and all of this stuff. And it actually just was a complete disaster because no one ever used it. When they did, they complained about it.
Brian Rowley:So I mean, those are just, I mean, a couple of examples, I guess. I don't know. How about yourself?
Laura Smith:Yeah. I'm not going to take the the tech route. I'm going to talk about a campaign that earlier on in my career, worked in advertising agency and it was a commercial insurance piece of business. And the overarching brand campaign was strong, but we worked on a specific business line, which is very focused on commercial insurance. And the business was just afraid to take risks, to have fun, and it really was, you know, an arduous process to create a sixty second spot that in the end, really, is like 17 to 20 lines of copy.
Laura Smith:So we had to go through so many rounds of, like, legal edits, business edits. It got so watered down. The client wouldn't let any of the creativity come through. So we basically landed on a very boring spot, commercial ad, and it probably ran a few times, and they pulled it because it didn't work, quote unquote.
Brian Rowley:Yeah.
Laura Smith:But really in the end, it's like, oh, you didn't give enough time to see if it worked, but but it really didn't work because it was not the creativity couldn't come through. So it's not one I would ever brag about. It's one that I would say, okay. That was an experience because even though pushing back, and sometimes we can't win those battles, it just proves that, you know, you have to let the creativity play its way through. And sometimes the brand or the internal folks just don't always, you know, have the the right the right decision making.
Laura Smith:So that was mine. So not tech related, but definitely one that I remember my career from a campaign perspective.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. And I think I think it actually ties back to, you know, it doesn't really whether it's tech or whether it's campaign related or whatever, like sometimes the overthinking of things, right, are are things that actually get us into trouble, which is actually a great segue into the introduction of our guest today, right? So today we've got a great guest who has actually helped many and some of the world's biggest brands make smarter decisions about their marketing tech and avoid the ones that sort of waste time and money. He's also the voice behind a couple of top marketing podcasts out there where he's led hundreds of conversations with CX and marketing leaders. He's built companies, written books and created courses to help marketers keep up with all that constant change that we constantly deal with every day.
Brian Rowley:So here to help us explore when more tech leads to less impact and how we refocus on what really matters in CX. Guys, please welcome Greg Kilstrom. Greg, welcome.
Greg Kihlstrom:Oh, thank you so much. Looking forward to talking with you. Yeah.
Brian Rowley:We're excited to have you.
Laura Smith:Yes. We are, Greg. So we're gonna dive in, and let's start with the trap itself. Where do you see customer experience technology doing more harm than good right now?
Greg Kihlstrom:Yeah. I think there's a couple things. One is there's a tendency to overbuy. So, you know, you you have redundant platforms where someone used platform x for this thing in their last position, let's just say, and so they know it for that and they buy it. And then sure enough, the company already has this other platform that actually does what that other platform does.
Greg Kihlstrom:And so now all of a sudden you have at, you know, at best, it's just redundancy and some some waste, but at worst, there's actually, you know, conflict and, features that, you know, that are are basically in conflict with one another. And and, you know, any kind of financial waste, everybody's looking for greater efficiencies and things like that. I think the other part is just having a lot of tech can distract us from focusing on the customer. And I spend a lot of my time trying to automate things and about how data can help and all of those. And yet when you spend all your time on that and not thinking about, okay, well, what is this actually doing not only for customers, but also the employees using those platforms?
Greg Kihlstrom:You can miss a big step in that. And so I I always think that people go into buying a platform because they kind of have this idea that the platform is gonna solve all the problems, and it ends up being the people in the process that really can make or break it.
Laura Smith:How do you help somebody out of those situations? So if they do because I know you do a lot of consulting work. Right? So if they if you they do have these two redundant processes or systems, you know, how do you help them navigate that to figure out, is there one? Are both of these not effective with this new team or structure?
Laura Smith:Like, how how do you solve for that?
Greg Kihlstrom:Yeah. I think the first thing is to really get an understanding of what are people doing with their with their days. So, you know, and you start finding out that this team all the way over I mean, most most of the companies that I work with are, you know, they're enterprise companies. So lots of teams, silos, you know, all the all the, you know, all the all the stereotypical things that you you think of when you think of of enterprise companies. So you have you do have sometimes redundancy and things, but to really just understand, okay, well, why are people using these tools?
Greg Kihlstrom:You know, what what is it in their day that is causing them to use this or need this or think they need this thing? And then, you know, these other people over here, they're probably using a completely different tool, sometimes to the same end. So just, I just start with a map of not of even of the platforms, but of the processes that people go through. And then you could take it to, okay, now what are all the platforms that we have and connections and all that kind of stuff?
Brian Rowley:I think it's also an example of sort of how, you know, companies are really siloed in some of their decision making because, I mean, we see this all the time. Even, you know, we're somewhat of a smaller company but you actually, Laura, we see it, right? Where you've got, you know, one group is using one tool and another one is using something completely different but they both do the same thing. And it's like we would be so much more powerful if we all just were either on the same platform or we all had a way to sort of, you know, at least have the conversations around, hey, we're making some of these investments. I know, Greg, like you said you work with Fortune five, you know, the big enterprise companies, right?
Brian Rowley:So do you see a trend there? Like does this, like the companies that fall into this trap, are they more of the larger companies? Do you see it in smaller companies? Like, is it a combination of both? Because it seems like it's kind of obvious and yet we still see it happening all the time.
Greg Kihlstrom:Yeah. I mean, see it ever, even though I work mainly with larger companies, I I deal plenty with with smaller organizations as well. So I see I it's everywhere. I and I I'm always kind of shocked where if someone just really, really likes a platform, they get to use it and it breaks every you know, so I'll pick on Slack right now. It's like I think Slack's an amazing tool and it can it can do some great things.
Greg Kihlstrom:But if you already have three other applications that allow you to chat in real time, like it doesn't really matter that there's a bunch of people at your company that really, really like this one thing. Now, all of a sudden you have cognitive load of, okay, I need to send a message to someone. Platform do they like to use? What do they check most frequently? What's the best tool for this kind of communication?
Greg Kihlstrom:It's just I feel like it's an unnecessary burden on the even though it's intended to give employees choice and make it easier, like, it's an unnecessary burden to give people, like, five You already have to check email and your phone and everything else. It's like now all of a sudden, again, just to pick on that one example, but I think it's one that tends to come up. It's just like, why not just give people less choice, make it easier to decide even if it's not their platform that they might have chosen anyway?
Laura Smith:Yeah. And I think, you know, we definitely see that internally too as well, like that the preference piece and different departments prefer different tools, but, really, I think the goal is to minimize that. But the other side of it too is, like, there is you can have one platform, like, say, a CRM, for instance, and you have different people using using it at different ways or different, levels. Right? So some teams are using it full or they're full on embedded in it.
Laura Smith:Other teams are kind of using it. And so then it doesn't really maximize that tool to the to the greatest it can be utilized and benefit the business. So I think that's another thing. Even if there's one tool, that can be there can be inconsistencies there which don't really get the true benefits out of that tool.
Greg Kihlstrom:Yeah. And I think that's where leaders really need to step up here and, you know, again, whether they like the tool or not. You know, again, we we have such I mean, I know there are there are software tools that I love and and some that I don't love. But regardless of personal subjective preferences, it's like, if you're a leader, you gotta you gotta be on the same page as your peers. And if if x CRM is the thing that you've chosen and you're gonna use, then then use it.
Greg Kihlstrom:And then, you know, build your processes around it. You know, think through empathize with the people using it. Empathize with the customers always. But you gotta lean into the thing that, you know, in some cases, millions of dollars, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars are being poured into to run the business.
Laura Smith:Right. But you just made a a great point, though, because what we forget about sometimes is the customer and the customer experience. Right? So can you share an example of where brands overoptimize or overautomate, and they're losing sight of the customer experience?
Greg Kihlstrom:Yeah. I do think it's a similar enough thing of, like, Oh, wow, I read this thing or this platform came out with this new feature. Let's use it. I assume it's always with best intentions of like, Okay, well, if we could just personalize a little bit more, if we could just automate a little bit more, then the customers must be happier with it. And I'm a huge proponent of all the buzz, you know, the one to one omnichannel personalization.
Greg Kihlstrom:Like, I love it. I believe in it. But you've got to get so many other things right before you start engineering something like that. Because often, in my experience as a customer, that stuff is great when it works, but do the basic. Like, when I show up to the hotel registration desk or whatever, know who I am.
Greg Kihlstrom:Know that I've stayed at the hotel before, before you start text messaging me this or that or, you know, hyper personalization. It's just like, again, make sure I have a nice stay in the hotel, you know? And then I appreciate that stuff when it happens and when it's done well. But when that stuff's done well, but my actual experience is, you know, mediocre, I don't really think about how hyper personalized the digital part of that experience is. I think about how mediocre the physical experience was.
Brian Rowley:I think, though, if, you know, so many times in these conversations and when you talk about marketing, either tactics or tools or whatever the case may be, I think if we just stop for a second and pause and just say, how is this helping the customer? I think so much of what we do, we would realize we're doing more to satisfy ourselves than we are to actually satisfy a customer experience. And to your point, I don't think that, you know, you have a ton of tools and that's always gonna make the customer experience better, right? So, you know, if, you know, someone knows who you are when they're calling, but they're still nasty when they pick up up the phone, it doesn't really matter, right? Like, I mean, great that you knew who I was, but you know, could you tune it up a little bit on your attitude, right?
Brian Rowley:As we move forward. So one of the questions I have is, you know, when marketing teams sort of spot some of this over investing investing in tools and all of that, like how do they overcome that? Like what are ways for them to be able to spot that and realize, Hey, wait a second, this isn't really helping. Like, do you have any, I mean, any guidance that you can be to sort of those red flags that people should be paying attention to?
Greg Kihlstrom:Yeah, I mean, I think from a metrics perspective, you can start seeing diminishing returns on ROI. You know, if your measurement is sophisticated enough, you should be able to see, okay, well, we turned this thing on and yeah, it made an impact, but it was negligible and it probably wasn't any better than if we just would have, you know, tried to write better copy or, you know, or something like that. And so, you know, I think for those that are able to measure pretty well, that's a good way to do it. I would also just fall back on, are your fundamentals as marketers successful already? Like, are they so successful that the only thing that could improve them is just hyper automation or personalization or things?
Greg Kihlstrom:I mean, the other thing that might be a counterpoint to myself even, but that I would say is if it's a zero sum, like, if you're gonna get the same results and you can automate, then by all means, like you're probably saving personnel costs or, you know, or something like that. So it's not that you should never do that. It's just think about the incremental gains that you're going to have. And if they're so small for the cost, there's not really ROI in doing that. And again, if there's major parts of just like the marketing 101 stuff that aren't performing, like look there first because that's probably gonna be if we're talking about incremental gains, like that's gonna be the biggest increment that you could do versus something, you know, kind of downstream and, you know, small gain.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I think we all fall, Laura. I know you and I, right, we have this conversation all the time, right? We're so metric focused, right, in terms of everything that we do. And that's not a bad thing.
Brian Rowley:I don't think that that's actually a bad thing, think, but it is trying to develop and and I'll throw this one to you, Greg. Like what does a healthy relationship with CX technology like look like? What what is that? Like, how do you balance whether a company is healthy in that approach or not?
Greg Kihlstrom:It kind of goes back to what you're saying earlier, which is, you know, is it is the technology helping the customer or is it just helping the company keep track of things a little bit better? You know, this is where you can measure things using don't I don't think that Net Promoter Score solves all problems, but I think it could help solve things here. Like, okay, well, you know, we're steady or we're increasing our score or whatever, even as we introduce more automation. Okay, I think we're doing the right thing. If customer satisfaction drops but we save a few bucks, I don't think that's a win.
Greg Kihlstrom:Know, I think that's a long term long term, I think that's sabotage. But, you know, short term, maybe, you know, you save some some dollars, but, you know, that's that's not a recipe for long term or even medium term success.
Laura Smith:Well, I think when we talked before, Greg, you had said, you know, get the customer experience right or in a good place, and then add your your technology onto that. Right? Because it's not if that's fundamentally not working, technology is not gonna do all the all the work there. So and we kind of, you know, alluded to that earlier in the conversation, but I think it is about focus on the customer experience at all touch points across the organization and then start layering in the technology. Right?
Laura Smith:And I think other and not doing all at the same time because that would obviously cause a lot of, you know, frustration and poor experiences. But that seems to be the better approach by just kind of optimizing those experiences and maybe finding those ways and those places where technology can help further optimize it, but not feel like you have to just take it a lot. Is that fair?
Greg Kihlstrom:Yeah. And I think I think a good way to do that is to start looking at, you know, the micro moments, the micro even internally, the you could call them transactions, even if there there's no financial component to it. It's just like, what are all of the the LEGO bricks that go into building an experience? And you know what? I bet 30% of those could actually be automated with no one caring one way or the other.
Greg Kihlstrom:Like, probably no net gain or loss, but efficiency savings. So cool. You know, do that. But like start thinking in terms of those little things that could make ideally a big difference to the customer. But at the very least, when you start thinking granularly like that, then you can start making things a little more streamlined one piece at a time.
Greg Kihlstrom:And, you know, that's not a big answer and a big cost savings and a big NPS gain or, you know, whatever it is. But over time, if you teach people to think like that, you're going to keep winning because you're gonna keep saving money. You're gonna keep having better customer experiences. And you're also not gonna change the customer experience all of a sudden one day versus another because nobody loves change either, even if it's slightly better change.
Laura Smith:Right. I mean, speaking of change, you know, AI, obviously, the buzzword right now everywhere, but what's your take on AI's role in the stack decision making? Like, where do you see that going and how I mean, it's obviously implemented now in some forms and fashions, but, you know, what's your take on the future of it?
Greg Kihlstrom:Yeah. I mean, I think it's the the future is really augmenting, and I would even say elevating the role of the professional. And and I think if if we can think in terms of that, then there are gonna be people that lose their job, you know, any any time throughout history that there's been, you know, technology improvements or whatever, there's been job losses, but then there's actually been more jobs created and more wealth created. So we, unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, are sitting at this point in time where, yeah, there's there's gonna be some change. But I think at the end of the day, the role of, you know, whether it's CX professionals, whether it's others, that it is going to be elevated to do something more strategic, more just valuable, and that feels more valuable versus being stuck in front of spreadsheets or, you know, doing data entry or doing repeatable tasks and everything.
Greg Kihlstrom:And I think AI is that's what AI is there to do is, you know, to help us automate things, be more efficient, as well as gain quicker access to insights that we can then do something with. And I think that's the value that we bring to the table.
Brian Rowley:I think important part of that though, and Laura you touched on it and I know we've talked about it as you mentioned Laura, like getting back to the basics. Think when it comes to automation or even AI, it's a really difficult balance to be able to try create because I can tell you that, you know, and I think one of the recommendations I would say to people is walk yourself through your own customer experience and be honest with it as to whether or not it's effective or not. Because there's only so many times you can push me through automation before I actually may wanna have a conversation with someone. And if that option isn't there, it's actually gonna be really bad customer experience for me. Whereas you or Laura, you may have either a greater tolerance or a lesser tolerance for it.
Brian Rowley:I think AI is a similar thing like you have to balance how much you know about someone before they start to feel like you're being intrusive in in their lives and some of the of their behaviors. And so I do think it is a balance and I do think it's tricky. I don't know that all the answers are there, but but I do think it does get back to like, some of it is very basic and some of it is just making sure you understand what that experience is and you feel comfortable with it before you hand it off to someone else. I mean, I don't know if you have an opinion on that, but that's my take on it.
Greg Kihlstrom:Yeah, I mean, I feel I totally agree. Like, the process of journey mapping, I think some people roll their eyes when they hear that. Some people like myself, I've never been through that process and not learned something valuable from it. Even if I did it for the same organization, like twelve months after I did it the first time. Like, there's I've always found value in doing that.
Greg Kihlstrom:It takes time in some cases. But, you know, I found I was working with a health care company and found out that by literally going through the process, there is a scenario where you get like four text messages at the same time after creating this one type of appointment. And wow, what a terrible experience. And nobody knew is the thing. It's like, you know, everyone was doing their job and they were doing, you know, well, best intentions, like, we want to make sure that they get this information or whatever.
Greg Kihlstrom:Mapping that out, you know what? It got solved and it got solved quickly in an organization that doesn't necessarily move quickly. So, you know, by going through that process, and I would even say going through it internally as well, because I think that can be as important to just understand, Okay, well, I mean, as a I've been a, you know, I've been a leader several times in my career. I've always felt like I need to know what the people that like, need to know the role that someone's trying to play in order to manage them as best as I can. It's not that you can't manage people without doing that, but I always felt that that is important.
Greg Kihlstrom:I take that when I consult now as I need to know what these people are doing. And, you know, from my perspective, it seems like, oh, they're wasting a bunch of time because they should be doing X, Y, and Z. But I don't know, nine times out of 10, whether it's a good reason or not, there's a there's a reason why they're doing that. And you got to talk to them and understand about doing it. So, you know, maybe the theme there is empathy, right, you know, to to walk in the shoes and and really just understand, even if it can be improved, I think just do going through the process helps.
Laura Smith:Yeah. It's I know somebody back in their you know, early on in their career, they worked for a fast food company and in corporate, and they were required two to three times a year to go into those environments and work behind the counter. And I think that is the best example of showing how think that you're 100%. That's empathy, Greg, because people are having to, you know, flip burgers or make fries or do whatever. But it's also seeing everything that's happening and what they're encountering.
Laura Smith:It only makes you better at your job and then helps equip them to do a better job. So I think it's a 100% of a lie a line there, and I think it's great that companies like that do force that behavior. It makes sense.
Brian Rowley:I always equate that back to, like, waiting tables. I think anybody that's in a service role, a customer service role, or support role, if you've never waited a table you have no idea what the customer is like. Think waiting tables is probably one of the best things to be able to get you to be comfortable with how to handle customer situations.
Laura Smith:I did it once and I hated it.
Greg Kihlstrom:I can't say I have, but yeah, I know what you mean. And I mean, you know, there's well, you know, I know like USAA and some other Zappos and others, like, they will put, like, first couple weeks on the job, they will put you in customer service. So, you know, the equivalent of waiting tables in that scenario. And it looks like, yeah. And you see, you know, these companies being, you know, they have very satisfied and very loyal customers because everybody in the company knows that job and knows knows at least some window into what customers are actually needing and wanting.
Laura Smith:Right. One question going back to AI for a second. How are you using AI right now? Or how would you feel like what are you finding the most effective use of AI in your role and potentially even, you know, when you have various roles, I know. But and then how are you recommending it to some of your, you know, customers and clients?
Laura Smith:If there was one that you would say this is the most effective use of it that you're experiencing?
Greg Kihlstrom:Yeah. In in a couple I guess I, yeah, I play a few different roles. So in doing doing the podcasts and and producing those and everything, it is a high I run a lean team. You know, I have a team, you know, it's a it's a few of us that are that are doing things, highly automated process. I in fact, I I dedicate, like, an afternoon every month to literally sitting and thinking, Okay, what did I do last month that I don't ever want to do again?
Greg Kihlstrom:So from that perspective, and that just kind of goes with maybe the media production and all that, margins being what they are and time being what it is, you know, finite, it's all about optimization and stuff like that. I think, you know, when consulting with a Fortune 500 company, efficiency is is certainly important, but it's also about some of those other things like reaching the customer at the right time in the right place. And so a lot of a lot of what I try to focus on is how do we get quicker insights? Some in some cases, it's how do we get quicker insights to a marketing team so they can make better decisions in a group? It's becoming more and more, how do I get quicker insights so I can create a feedback loop to then feed some, you know, predictive model that then automates and personalizes?
Greg Kihlstrom:And, you know, even some of the larger companies that I work with, they're still somewhere on that. They're not all the way on the advanced side of the spectrum, so to speak, of of being able to to do all of the the fancy things, but it is quicker speed to insights and and automating away some of the minutiae and some of the repeatable stuff that is taking them away from making better decisions at the very least.
Brian Rowley:I think that's how I think we've learned from that too. You know, I think one of the things that we have seen in the way that we use it is, I mean, it is very powerful in getting you to a starting point, not necessarily the end point and I think we've seen that success with that. I also think that giving you some, to your point, like when we're looking at podcasts and things that we do, understanding and getting some fast insights on what's happening in the market. What are some of the topics that are really important to people because you know, it's all about relevance, right? There's empathy on that side of it.
Brian Rowley:It's being relevant as well in the conversations that you're having and making sure that it's what people want to hear. So I think it's been helpful for us there too. I don't think we've even scratched the surface of what it's capable of doing, but I can tell you what we have seen so far is really, I mean it really just helps you get to that starting point a heck of a lot faster than you could do without it.
Greg Kihlstrom:Yeah. I mean, with podcasting, it's like if I can focus my energy on how do I create the best content, which, I mean, to date at least, AI is not as good at being a podcast host as humans. So, you know, if I can focus my energy on how do I get to that point, then, you know, scheduling and generating social posts and, you know, some of the other things that, yeah, you know, I don't I don't put anything out there that's not double checked by a human, you know, to some degree. But in the if the product is the podcast, like the the questions and my my interactions with the guests and and things like that, that is the prime thing that that needs to be focused on. And then, you know, then the rest, let's take a look at where we can automate and and not lose something and and and stuff like that.
Greg Kihlstrom:Yeah. Great.
Laura Smith:Great. Well, now we're gonna move into our hot seat segment. Okay. No pressure, Greg. But we're gonna ask you for one hot take.
Laura Smith:Okay? So if you could wipe one popular CX or MarTech trend off the map entirely forever, what would it be?
Greg Kihlstrom:Wow. Don't say podcast. Right. Right. Right now.
Greg Kihlstrom:I mean, I think looking at a single metric for success would be, I I think, is just a setup for for failure. And, you know, I'm not gonna point fingers. Any company that does that has their thing of you know, it could be CSAT, MBS, whatever the case may be. But just looking at the single thing as a barometer, I I think we need to stop that.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I think that's I think that's really good. I will say we're running out of time. I one last comment would just be that as you reflect on this past month, I hope Laura and I don't fall into that list of things that I don't I wish I hadn't done during the course of the month. I know we've really enjoyed having you here, so thank you very much for that.
Brian Rowley:Don't tell us if we did fall on that list.
Greg Kihlstrom:No. You're great. You're great.
Laura Smith:Thank you, Greg. We really appreciate you spending time with us today. And we know, hopefully, we'll talk again. I know that, you know, Brian's been on your podcast before, and you know you're coming to our podcast. So we're excited to hopefully keep the relationship and the conversations going.
Greg Kihlstrom:Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. Thanks. I mean, interesting Laura, right? I mean, we continue to go back to some of the things, we talk about empathy, right, we've talked about that on several of the podcasts before, different contexts but still the same. You know, I think the point of, and you and I have been through many customer journey maps, right, and looking at that, but I do think it's an important part to figure out and understand what that is and how automations actually play into that and work through it in order for it to make for customer experience.
Laura Smith:Yeah. I think the customer experience piece, the fundamentals of that, that's what needs to stand out. You know? Like I I think that like look at like we talked about, that technology can come after as long as we get the basics right. And that to me was what I take away from this is in trying to think of that day to day because there are situations where we may be not be optimizing our customer experience, but we're using great technology.
Laura Smith:But how do we know that's all working together for effective outputs and outcomes? So so, yeah, it was a great conversation.
Brian Rowley:Yeah. I would agree. For those of you listening, thank you so much. And most importantly, if you like what you heard today, be sure to follow us. If you want to hear more from Greg, you can find him on LinkedIn and check out his podcast, The Agile Brand and B2B Agility with Greg Kilstrom.
